***UPDATE***
December 20, 2009
Welcome to the College Confidential readers. When I originally researched the IB Program, I looked at it from the point of view of an aspiring engineering major. The first thing I noticed was that colleges gave inferior credit to the IB Program's math and science classes. Subsequent research shows that even for English and History, the AP Program is awarded superior college credit relative to the IB Program. See this post examining the credit policies at the University of Texas and Chapman University in California. This experience is repeated at Texas A&M University, the University of Houston and likely many more colleges.
Prior to enrolling in the IB Program, be sure to review the degree requirements for the major of your choice at several target universities -- even if your desired major does not require an in-depth command of math and science. Chances are that you will learn that the AP Program is a better choice than the IB Program.
-- Begin original post --
One of my most popular posts has been this one that evaluates how colleges treat AP and IB exams when awarding college credit. Apparently, this has been a contentious question: Which is better? AP or IB?
Judging by the quality of credits colleges award for the Advanced Placement exams and the International Baccalaureate exams, the answer is clear. AP is clearly the better choice over IB. International Baccalaureate is notoriously weak in math and science.
IB Mathematics HL students typically only earn one semester of calculus credit since IB Math HL is so weak. IB Physics HL usually earns credit only for non-science and non-engineering majors because it is not calculus-based.
The fact that IB students may take AP exams is of little consequence. Since IB Math HL teaches precious little integral calculus, IB Math HL students would have a difficult time passing the AP Calculus BC exam. Likewise, IB Physics HL isn't even calculus-based whereas AP Physics C is. IB Physics HL students would find the calculus-based curriculum of AP Physics C nearly insurmountable. In schools where IB and AP classes are one in the same, it would be a fortunate instance indeed if either could perform well on the AP Physics C exam. Calculus-based physics needs to be taught to learn calculus-physics. (I know that is tautological.)
Colleges reflect the reduced rigor of the International Baccalaureate Program in their credit schedules. I first noted this in the original post when I looked at how a prospective engineer at Texas A&M University would fare under AP and IB. The AP student could test out of all the technical courses required for freshmen engineering students, Math 151-152 and Physics 218, 208. IB students can earn credit only for Math 151. That revelation inspired me to evaluate the AP and IB credit schedules of over 100 colleges and universities. Of those, 80-90% give higher quality credit to AP students; I have only found one school that gives IB students better quality credit.
IB students still earn credit for IB Math HL and IB Physics HL, but this analysis shows that this credit is of less value (or no value) to scientists and engineers. IB Physics HL routinely earns credit for non-science, non-engineer majors while AP Physics C credit can be used by scientists and engineers.
Because the previous post was so popular, I wanted to present this information as a stand-alone thread. The intent of the first post was to analyze SAT scores in Houston-area school districts. So without further ado, here is the current list of colleges and how they treat AP and IB exams:
AP credit is superior to IB credit
Abilene Christian (Tex.)
Air Force
Alabama
Alabama - Birmingham
Albany (N.Y.)
American University (Wash DC)
Appalachian State (N.C.)
Arizona
Arizona State
Arizona Western
Arkansas
Arkansas - Little Rock
Armstrong Atlantic (Ga.)
Austin College (Tex.)
Austin Peay (Tenn.)
Babson (Mass.)
Ball State
Baylor
Boston University
Bradley (Ill.)
Brigham Young
Buffalo
Cal State - Long Beach
California (Berkeley)
California Polytechnic
Carnegie Mellon
Central Florida
Chapman (Calif.)
Chicago
Clemson
Colorado
Colorado - Denver
Colorado School of Mines
Colorado State
Columbia College
Cornell
Creighton (Neb.)
Dartmouth
Davidson College (N.C.)
Dayton
Delaware
DePaul (Ill)
Drury University (Mo.)
Evansville
Florida
Florida Atlantic
Florida State
George Mason (Va.)
George Washington (Wash DC)
Georgetown (Wash DC)
Georgia
Grand Valley State (Mich.)
Houston
Houston Baptist
IUPUI
Idaho
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Iowa State
James Madison (Va.)
Kansas
Kansas State
Kent (Ohio)
Kentucky
Lehigh (Pa.)
Lewis & Clark (Ore.)
Louisiana State
Marshall (W. Va.)
Mary Washington (Va.)
Maryland
Maryland - Baltimore County
Miami (Fla.)
Miami (Ohio)
Michigan Tech
Middle Tennessee
Midwestern State (Tex.)
Minnesota State (Mankato)
Mississippi
Missouri
Missouri S&T
Montana State
Nebraska
Nevada
North Carolina - Greensboro
North Carolina State
North Texas
Northern Colorado
Northern Michigan
Northwestern
Ohio State
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Oregon
Oregon State
Penn State
Pennsylvania
Pittsburgh
Portland (Ore.) State
Puget Sound, University of (Wash.)
Purdue
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (N.Y.)
Rhodes College (Tenn.)
Rochester (N.Y.)
Rose-Hulman (Ind.)
SUNY - Oswego
Sacramento State
St. John Fisher (N.Y.)
St. Mary's College (Calif.)
St. Mary's College (Md.)
Sam Houston State (Tex.)
Samford (Ala.)
Seattle
South Alabama
South Carolina
South Florida
Southern Methodist
Southwest Minnesota
Stanford
Stephen F. Austin State (Tex.)
Swarthmore (Pa.)
Syracuse
Tennessee
Texas
Texas A&M
Texas Christian
Texas State
Texas Tech
Tulane
UC - Davis
UC - Irvine
UC - Merced
UC - Riverside
UC - San Diego
UC - Santa Barbara
UC - Santa Cruz
UCLA
UT - Dallas
UTEP
UTSA
Utah State
Vanderbilt
Villanova (Pa.)
Virginia
Wake Forest
Washington
Washington State
Washington University (St. Louis)
Wayne State (Mich.)
Wellesley (Mass.)
West Florida
West Virginia
William & Mary (Va.)
Winthrop (S.C.)
Wisconsin
Wyoming
=======
AP and IB credit equivalent
* Does not allow any credit by exam
Amherst*
Auburn
Boston College
California Institute of Technology*
Denver
Duke
Georgia Tech
MIT
Marquette (Wisc.)
Michigan
Michigan State
Minnesota
North Carolina
Northeastern
Notre Dame
Rice
Virginia Tech 1
Wofford (S.C.)
=======
IB credit is superior to AP credit
Brown
156-1-18
As with the previous post, I will justify why schools are on each list upon request. I will also evaluate any schools not on the list upon request.
=======
1 I assumed here that our candidate holds the IB Diploma. This is the only way to earn credit for IB HL Math at Virginia Tech. A IB Certificate holder earns absolutely no credit at VT for IB HL Math.
44 comments:
I had an off-blog inquiry as to why Wyoming was listed as giving higher quality credit to AP exams over IB exams.
The premise of this blog is that credit earned in the IB program is less valuable to engineers and scientists. So let's look at a prospective physics major at the University of Wyoming.
The first two physics classes our aspiring physics major must take are Phys 1310 and Phys 1320.
AP students may test out of both of these classes. Unfortunately for IB HL Physics students, the IB HL Physics exam doesn't allow them to test out of either class. IB HL Physics only allows credit for physics for non-scientists and non-engineers.
Wyoming credit schedules: AP / IB
What about Emory?
While I would agree that AP Calc is far superior than IB Math HL Core, IB HL is almost as good in Calc.if the option "series and differential equations" is chosen. Also, IB covers advanced topics that AP does not (that I know of)-Cauchy-Schwartz, de Moivre, Euler, etc. So, overall they're pretty even
Anon (June 28):
To my knowledge, Emory does not publish a AP/IB credit schedule. Therefore, it isn't possible to draw any conclusions about specific exams.
HOWEVER, according to Emory's AP, IB, AND COLLEGE CREDIT POLICIES, AP Calculus BC students earn eight credit hours at Emory while IB HL Math only earns four credit hours. I believe this to be consistent with the overwhelming majority of colleges that grant credit for two semesters of calculus to AP students, but only one semester of calculus to IB students.
Because this isn't definitive, I'm leaving Emory off the list entirely.
Anon (August 11):
I'll stipulate that steps can be taken to improve IB HL Math in order to make it pretty even with AP Calculus.
That said, this is of little value to most students since the overwhelming majority of American universities won't grant equal college credit for IB HL Math. Universities (and parents for that matter) can't be sure that students' IB Math class were improved to be essentially the same as AP Calculus.
I don't know if Canadian universities have similar policies, but I'm not going to spend the time to research it.
If you take AP Calculus BC can you sit the IB Higher Math exam and expect to do well? If so, can you also take AP Micro and AP MacroEconomics and sit the IB Higher Economics exams?
Anon (Sept. 17):
IB is restrictive. A student *must* take the IB class to take the IB test. Therefore, an AP Calculus BC student may not take the IB HL Math test.
There is absolutely no reason for AP students to take the IB tests since AP exams earn better credit at US universities.
AP is much more flexible -- any student may take AP exams. The statistics I have seen show that AP students perform better on AP exams than IB students perform on AP exams. IB students perform better on IB exams than IB students perform on AP exams. Nothing earth shattering there. In fact, I'd say that is rather intuitive.
I am a Canadian IB student and it could be because of my teacher's preferences, but integral calculus was the biggest and most important unit in our course, and physics HL is very clearly calculus based. I think that's the teacher's preference, though.
And to a previous post inquiring as to the standards in Canada, it seems that it's about half and half, though the bigger institutions seem to prefer IB as a program. Of course, AP in Canada is likely different from AP in the United States.
Foolish human, AP Physics C? Sigh, you have obviously not experienced the rigors of the IB. Yes, calculus in IB Physics is not required, however, many teachers (including mine) use calculus in class (as well as lines and planes in space.) As far as I can see from the AP Physics syllabus, AP covers half of the material IB HL covers (jaja, you guys don't have astrophysics, optics, and medicine. . . that's so sad). I am sure that the discrimination of the IB in the US has nothing to do with the fact that it is a foreign program *ahem, ahem, sarcasm*. AP Math? Foolish human, while the average AP monkey knows how to differentiate and integrate, it has no footing when it comes to complex numbers, lines and planes in space, statistics and probability, sets and relations. . .. the list goes on and on. Jaja, your claim of AP superiority in integration is faulty at best; you have obviously not even considered the 'sets and differential equations' option, which is taken by a large part of IB math HL students. ALL of my IB teachers who have taught AP say that the IB is far more demanding in what it requires from the student. I advice you to actually look at an IB exam before you begin ranting without reason (and by an IB exam, I mean all 3 papers, options included). Foolish, foolish human. . .
Markos,
You "advice" me? Can you be any more of a jerk, foolish human?
Shame on IBO for ticking off the Welsh people and its government. Oh but cheer up Markos, our Savior Obama will "restore" IBO's prestige.
SAY NO TO IBO!
www.truthaboutib.com
Jajajaja, I went to the site and I couldn't help but laugh when I read this excerpt:
"Critics have argued that IB promotes values that conflict with traditional Judeo-Christian values. Some have said it promotes Marxist ideology because the Deputy Director General of the International Baccalaureate Organization, Ian Hill ( see Appendix 1 of Synthesis document under the Earth Charter tab) was a signatory to the Earth Charter, a collection of Marxist global principles created in France in 2000."
Mmmm, apparently the IB is pure evil because it does not conform to Judeo-Christian beliefs, and because it's run by PEOPLE (yes, 'Anonymous,' Marxists, non-Christians, and all of us, the remaining heathens, are PEOPLE, too) who are blind to the 'supremacy' of democracy and the Abrahmaic faiths. . .. Jajaja, I recall saying something about intolerance in my last post. Mmmm, thanks, 'Anonymous,' for providing my argument with a concrete example; contrary to my initial reaction, you aren't completely useless after all. >: )
Enjoy the bitter taste of fury,
Markos
Anybody who enjoys a good bit of idiotic propaganda every now and then, go to the www.truthaboutib.com. I'm only telling you guys because I've placed a lethal curse on the above URL with my handy IB Dark Magic HL skills. . .. 'Anonymous,' in my seventeen sweet years of witnessing idiocy in its purest form, you, and the authors of the site mentioned above, take the price.
Jaja, sorry, I couldn't resist myself. It's these evil urges which have been drilled into my head by my IB Coordinator, I do apologize. . . sincerely *ahem*.
Oh, don't stop now. Zealots like yourself only go to prove my case. You put a voodoo curse on my site? ROTFLMAO! Oooooo, I'm just quaking in my boots.What a miscreant!
I didn't think you could be anymore of a jerk, but incredibly, you are.
And since you are still a minor, allow me to correct your incorrect perceptions. Mine is not the "bitter taste of fury". It is the delicious delicacy known as "Sweet Liberty".
I'd ask you to take a bite, but it might be hard to get it past that foot in your mouth.
Jajajaja, tone, 'Anonymous?' Oh, sorry, I forgot that it's impossible to pick up on something as remotely subtle as sarcasm with the blunt instrument you call a 'mind,' (this may have been totally uncalled for if you were playing dumb. . . but, you see, I really do think you WERE being dumb).
Mmmm, I guess it's hard to argue coherently when you know you'll lose, isn't it, 'Anonymous?' Yeeeppp, you'd better start making me out to be some sort of underage hormone bag ; )
What is this 'liberty' you speak of? You certainly seem to abuse the 'liberty' to make yourself a fool on the web, but aside from that 'liberty,' what are you referring to? If it's the liberty to do whatever you want, thanks to poor Chinese law enforcement in my sunny coastal home, I am freer than you could ever be. Suck it : p
Kind regards *ahem once more*,
the kid you called inferior in your original blogpost, then called a cult member through that ridiculous site, and finally referred to as a 'zealot' with no liberties in your last post. . .. It's getting kind of hard to keep track of all of this, the way your mind seems to slip off topic constantly; concentrate, doofus!
Markos,
Although ugly behavior seems common among IB supporters, generally Americans prefer civility. I'd like to request that you improve your behavior while on my site.
Here are the IB and AP policies at Tulane. Notice the following:
1. AP Calculus BC students may test out of two semesters of calculus (Math 121 and Math 122) because AP is a more rigorous program. IB HL Math students may only earn credit for Math 121, the same as the lower level AP Calculus AB.
2. IB HL Physics earns the same credit as the lower level AP Physics B: Phys 121 and Phys 122. These classes may not be used toward a engineering/science degree. AP Physics C students may earn credit for the more rigorous Phys 131 and Phys 132, classes that may be used by engineers/scientists.
3. AP foreign language is more widely accepted at Tulane. AP students in German, Japanese, Chinese, Italian and Latin are guaranteed credit. The same is not true for IB students.
4. AP students may earn credit for required political science classes. IB students may not.
Again, while you're welcome to post comments on my site, I'd like to request that you clean up your juvenile antics going forward.
Ummm. . . ACR, I am an American. Frankly, I did not like the "Americans prefer civility" bit.
I apologize for having offended you, ACR, but I don't apologize for what I said or why I said it. To quote Kumar Patel, "this is America, dude, and as long as I have my freedom of speech, no one is going to shut me up." The guy's site is a bunch of nonsense; if the IB were some sort of cult, the psychological ramifications that an education in an IB school would have on past students would be noticeable. He is full of contradictions, falsities, and fear mongering sensationalism. Ticks me offffffff unimaginably. I concede to his right to shower us in stupidity, but I also uphold my right to tell him he is showering us in stupidity.
Either way, moving on. Some guy/girl mentioned earlier that IB students who took AP tests scored lower, and that therefore AP students who took IB tests must score higher, because AP is 'superior.' This is an assumption which cannot be made in a holistic, credible study; he/she failed to cite the scores of AP students taking IB tests. As they are based on two different methods of teaching, the tests will no doubt examine different skills under different conditions. Just as an AP student has had practice with AP questions, an IB student has had practice with IB questions (there were 4 practice tests on the AP book; AP students have access to those resources, while I bet that the IB students who sat AP tests did not.) I am positive that if an AP student sat an IB exam, he would perform below his IB counterpart.
I have examined the Calculus AB and BC book, and we are doing practically the same thing in class. I see no major differences, once the options have been incorporated into the curriculum. I also had a look at the AP practice tests, which are very different from IB exams:
1. More than half of the exam is multiple choice.
2. It does not test complex numbers (there is at least one question on de Moivre's theorem in every IB exam).
3. It does not test knowledge of mathematical induction.
4. It does not test mathematical knowledge of lines and planes, or matrices.
5. It does not test mathematical knowledge of probability and statistics (the continuous probability section of the IB, although not centered on calculus, uses quite a bit of integration.)
While I concede that the AP math curriculum is on par with the IB math curriculum (with the differential equations options included) WHEN it comes to calculus, it trails behind in many other areas of math. I do not see how such a program can be viewed as 'superior' to IB HL math, when IB students cover so much more material. Other factors, which would be revealed by an in depth objective study, must be at work; hmmm, this is when those handy IB math statistics skills would come in handy.
Kind regards,
Markos
UNC - Chapel Hill (I love this school)
Chemistry HL 5 (score) Chemistry 101,101L,102,102L 8 (credits
AP Chemistry 5 (score) Chemistry 101, 101L, 102,102L 8 (credits)
Me and my friends always joke about how a 5 on an AP exam equals a 5 on an IB exam. Seems to be true for Chemi, at least.
On the other side of the coin, you have AP courses which are on par with IB courses (at least in some aspects):
Math HL 5(score) Math 231, 232 6(credits)
Calculus BC 3(score) Math 110P, 231, 232 6 (credits)
A bunch of top institutions (Duke, Brown, etc. . . the information I've come across in these past few days has really made my blood boil) accredit the IB learner with the just amount of credit because they've done their research, and they're not plagued by misconceptions and assumptions. It makes me angry to see a student working with an AP AB/BC book, which is almost exactly the same as the Math HL calc section, getting more credits than what I may get, even though I've completed a course which is identical to his/hers, and then some. I assure you, ACR, if you were in the same position, you'd see where the outrage originates. I take any statement made against the IB very personally, because it influences people's perception of the program, and ultimately, because these comments are detrimental to my education, and that of thousands of other eligible IB candidates.
ACR, you're basing most of your premises on second hand information, data and figures which have been processed by other institutions; you are trying to describe a painting to someone else when you've never seen it, but have only heard of it. It's the assumptions you make which I take as an assault on my future, and that of thousands of others, because they have the power to negatively influence the decision of an institution, instead of forcing them to do their own research.
Do your research, look at an actual IB exam (look at the entire 6 hour paper, including the series and differential equations section in paper 3,) and then speak.
Markos,
Your behavior is improving. Thank you. Regarding my comment that Americans prefer civil discourse, I still stand behind that. Due to your previous actions and the fact that you live in the Xiamen area, I thought it was possible that you were not completely familiar with American culture.
I am perfectly aware that Duke, Brown and UNC treat IB on equal footing as AP. Please refer to the original post I made in June. You have to realize, though, that 85-90% of colleges have determined that IB is less rigorous than AP as reflected in their credit schedules.
I see that you have successfully parroted the IB talking points. AP exams are multiple choice. The time length of the exam. College administrators who don't give equal credit are derelict and haven't done their research. The professors at those colleges base their professional opinion on misconceptions. Your lack of curiosity and baseless attack on the professional reputations of college administrators is very reminiscent of this article by Jay Mathews.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what I think of IB or you think of IB. What is important is what the colleges think of IB. And the colleges have spoken. IB is inferior.
I can appreciate that with your young age, you can be very emotional about this issue. But you ought to consider that you've been deceived by the IBO into thinking their product is a good one. My local school district is planning a vote to eliminate IB. This is good. I support the return to the excellent academic reputation this district has enjoyed for years. It is never too late to change your mind.
A couple of final items, Markos. I control the speech both in the posts and in the comments on this blog. While I try to grant a wide latitude of opinion in the comments here, I do have control of the delete button and am able to delete any comments. You are mistaken when you claim that you have freedom of speech in a forum that I control. Simply mistaken.
During your ugly stage, you claimed that Communist China is more free than the United States. That statement alone supports the allegations of many IB critics who say that IB promotes moral equivalence. Certainly you are aware of Chinese abuses in Tibet and the repression of the Falun Gong. And I am old enough to remember the Tiananmen Square massacre of 1989. While, as a Westerner in China, you may have a great deal of freedom, it is intellectual and moral bankruptcy for you to suggest that this fact makes China freer than the US. Quite frankly, I find your moral equivalence frightening. You still have time to grow up, though.
Given that my claims have been vociferously backed by many others, I would take that to mean that there is indeed some truth behind them, not that they are dismissible.
As for freedom in China, the idea of 'liberty' and 'freedom' in itself is completely relative; I, myself, enjoy more freedoms here than I would enjoy in the USA, and I know this because I've lived in both countries. I would also ask that you pay attention to what I actually said, I said "I" was freer because I was in China, I never said "China" was freer. I can see how it would be easy to confuse these two statements, but I ask that you attempt to interpret my thoughts as I've written them, instead of misinterpreting them for a rhetorical gain. Personally, I have visited Tibet and Beijing, and I am aware of the anti-Marxist (they can no longer be called Marxists as they participate in many capitalist practices), imperialist, and expansionist behavior of the CCP; this, however, does not change the fact that I enjoy many more liberties in China than I would in the US. I would also suggest that you refrain from using the term "moral bankruptcy" when criticizing someone's political beliefs, as it has become an overused and all too common cliché. As for the growing up comment, I find it particularly distasteful in that you are assuming I have not experienced nearly as much as you have, even though you seem to know next to nothing about me as a person, other than what I've shown in my past responses.
In reference to your comments suggesting that I am merely parroting "the IB talking points," or that I have been "deceived by the IBO into thinking their product is a good one," I would like to reiterate that I have arrived at my conclusions through my own research, and that I have not consulted with any IBO personnel in my school during my evaluation of the AP program these past few days. I would also point out that, to my knowledge, you have not looked at an IB exam. Unlike you, I have some trouble judging something accordingly when I have not reviewed it myself. I guess you could say that me going through AP physics, math, and chem. books and exams in my free time classifies as a "lack of curiosity" on my part.
I find the notion that "the colleges have spoken" on the supposed inferiority of the IB ludicrous, and frankly, a bit embarrassing to say (because it's so conceited). A multitude of universities, TOP universities at that, accept IB credits and AP credits equally. How can you say that "the colleges have spoken," when various leaders in higher education disagree with you?
As for the more "universally accepted" AP program, I would like to point out that in all of my years, stretching across 4 continents and a multitude of nationalities, all of the international schools I have encountered use the IB program. Typically, the children of these schools are the sons and daughters of diplomats, company executives, etc. who would have their offspring educated in the best of programs. Never in my life had I encountered the AP program, until I lived in the US.
I would also like to question you about your definition of "American culture." Last time I checked, the US was composed of such a panoramic diversity of ethnicities, cultures, and beliefs that classifying its different cultures into a single one was somewhat ridiculous. I believe that the only applicable word capable of describing the American populace as a whole is "diversity."
You know, Markos, you're not a very good ambassador for the IB Program. In the very first sentence of your last post you employ an Appeal to the People when you say that because many people believer IB is better than AP, there must be some truth to that. Then you proceed to say that my observation that colleges treat AP better than IB (as determined through their credit schedules) to be conceited. No, Markus, that is factual. You can look up the credit schedules yourself. I repeat, your opinion and my opinion of the IB Program doesn't matter. It is how colleges perceive the value of IB that matters. And to say various leaders disagree with me is disingenuous. I have personally examined the credit schedules of hundreds of colleges and universities around the world. Many foreign universities also grant better credit to the AP Program. One of the things I wish the IB Program did is to teach students how to learn.
I can understand that you've bought in to the IB Program. You've admitted that you're emotional about it. I wonder if you don't really want to evaluate the program carefully because you don't want buyer's remorse.
Your arguments are internally inconsistent, too, Markos. On one hand, you've attacked me for considering the possibility that you did not know American culture prefers civil discourse. You claimed you were aware of American culture. Then you claim that there is no single American culture. You are a moving target, Markos, but I will stand by my statement that American culture universally demands civility, even if you disagree. And although you've taken both sides of this argument, I will demand that you show civility on my blog.
You also employ the logical fallacy of Loki's Wager when you claim that liberty and freedom are "relative". No, we can define them. But just like Loki, you don't want to define them because you know you'd lose the argument that authoritarian China is freer than the US.
Personally, I am able to make moral determinations. I know one of the criticisms of the IB Program is that it fails to build moral character and therefore the IB Program is in conflict with Christian values. Since I am unchurched, I won't tread near the Christian argument. But again, you personally demonstrate the lack of values IB critics abhor. Don't you have the least bit concern about the lives of others in China? Or is it really sufficient for you to know that you personally have freedoms and everyone else be damned? Based on what you've written, it doesn't appear you care about the plight of others in the world. And even though you don't like the term "moral bankruptcy", I have concluded that you are indeed morally bankrupt.
As for reviewing actual IB exams, there is a very good website out there that documents the deceit of the IB Program. It is called Truth About IB. On that site, visitors may view actual IB exams. Yes, Markos, I know that you view the site with actual IB exams on it to be "propaganda". My personal experience at Pearland ISD taught me that any little scrutiny of the IB Program is not to be tolerated.
ACR, I would appreciate it if you discontinued misinterpreting my writing. First, I never mentioned the Chinese PEOPLE, because the very mention of them would be irrelevant to the argument; second, I did mention the many internal problems facing the CCP, and how I've been witness them on a first hand basis here in China. I cannot see how you could have possibly drawn such a farfetched connection from this. As to the relativity of freedom, yes, there is one definition which encompasses freedom in its entirety, and that is called Anarchy; personally, I find the idea of Anarchy unlikeable, and impossible to put into practice, that is why it is infinitely better to define freedom as relative. If I may point out, the idea of relative freedom enables the use of the word "freer," which you have used in the past. If freedom were a solid, definite, unanimously agreed upon concept, things could not be classified as "freer," because they would be either "free" or "not free," just as a table is either a "table" or "not a table." Although there is a characteristic lack of depth to your argument involving the definition of 'freedom,' I commend your patriotic effort in identifying the US as a relatively "freer" state.
I will maintain my stance, the colleges have not spoken; I will concede to the statement "some of the colleges have spoken," but not to the statement "the colleges have spoken." And I find it somewhat arrogant, hypocritical, and "very reminiscent" of Jay Mathews that you would find the idea of leaders in higher education, such as Harvard, disagreeing with you "disingenuous." Also, I would like to bring to your attention that I have visited the site you mentioned. I appreciate that given your bias, you would find the site "Truth About IB" veritable and fitting, but I ask you to consider, just as you asked me to consider, the possibility that you have been deceived. As for the exams you say are available through the site, I only found SINGLE PAGE EXCERPTS of 2 exams the last time I visited it two days ago. I simply cannot see how you would evaluate the whole program holistically with TWO PAGES from outdated exams of relatively unknown IB subjects. I will ask that you look at ACTUAL IB exams, and that they be specific to the subjects we've been discussing, i.e. math hl and physics. As to the 'excellence' of the site, I should point out that it is inconsistent and very noticeably contradictory. The extent of the site's sensationalist fear mongering and the fact that you seem to genuinely agree with them is somewhat. . . "frightening," correct? No matter, "you still have time to" realize your misconceptions.
I would also like to bring to your attention that thousands of seniors go through dozens, sometimes even hundreds of college credit tables a year, and that the program still seems to be alive and growing, in spite of this. Also, this cannot be labeled as effective research as much as it can be thought of as mindless memorization. First, you do not consider the methodologies or the justifications of the institutions, so you cannot know whether it is an objective evaluation of the program; second, the fact that many schools disagree with you would obviously point out that the AP is not as superior as you seem to think. I will ask again that you evaluate actual IB exams before you continue regurgitating the sensationalism of the site you mentioned.
On a final note, I find it hard to believe you have evaluated the IB program on an international basis effectively when you previously stated that you don't know if "Canadian universities have similar policies," but that, nonetheless, you were not "going to spend the time to research it." This would seem to indicate that your evaluation of the IB internationally has been limited at best, and false at worst.
Jaja, you sound so scarred by your 'experiences' in Pearland ISD, I find that amusing to an extent. May I just end by saying that you are free to visit all of my classes and see the IB at work; we often have visiting schools during tournament season, and we most certainly don't insulate ourselves to keep our 'international conspiracy' under wraps.
Markos
Markos,
I don't want to spend a lot of time on you. You are a very emotional, disingenuous individual. You committed to the IB Program before you checked to see how colleges view it. Others have done the same thing. Once that happens, a person can make two choices. One is to realize that the IBO is deceitful about the college credit its program can offer. The other is to be angry like you are.
I have no clue why you try to set my priorities and suggest I should check what Canadian universities do. That is a little pretentious, isn't it? (I have sampled a dozen or so Canadian universities. They're IB/AP credit schedules don't appear on-line as often as American universities. When they do, half of Canadian universities prefer AP, the other half are indifferent.)
As for Pearland ISD, I am not scarred. I am victorious. The school board is planning a vote in March to eliminate IB altogether and return Pearland ISD to academic rigor!
There is very little statistical analysis comparing IB students to any other students. TruthAboutIB.com has the only one I'm aware of. It evaluates the MYP. Applying the demographics of Pearland ISD to the study, Pearland ISD should expect the MYP to lower scores in history and science on standardized tests, and increase math and English. None of this is at a statistically significant level.
Be aware that this is comparing MYP students to the general population. This compares the MYP to nothing at all. Surely there is a program out there (obviously not produced by the IBO) that actually improves students' performance.
There is a lot of good hard factual information at TruthAboutIB.com.
One last comment about Pearland ISD: The district's IB Coordinator is as ugly as you are, Markos. At a parent meeting one time, she established for the audience that I was sitting to a woman who was not my wife. Then she declared to everyone that there was "some sort of personal issue between" us. She won't tell me what personal issue she perceives to exist between the other parent and me or how it relates to the fact that we aren't married to each other. I was floored. Actually, that was my first experience with how ugly IB supporters can be. You continue that unfortunate experience, Markos.
Jaja, actually, while I was in the US (8th and 9th grade), I heard a lot about the AP program and about college credits from many of my teachers who were attempting to persuade me to go with AP instead of IB. I did my research, and found that AP students have a small workload when compared to IB students. I know that for a fact now; many of my AP friends (yes, ACR, I have friends in the AP program) get to party hardy often, while I only get to do so on holidays, and even then not as much as they do because of all of the work I have to do. I also glanced at the curriculum of both programs online (I may have been in 9th grade, but I was just as interested), and I decided that even if I did not get any college credits, I would not only be a better student, but I would also succeed in my college courses because of the program. Plus TOK really interested me, and continues to do so. I can honestly say I have grown academically, and personally under the IB; I do not regret my decision, and I would not go back and choose AP for the credits.
"Truth About IB," may contain a couple of numbers, but that does not stop it from being a conspiracy theory site. They may as well be talking about aliens, for all of the credibility any sensible adult would lend it. The MYP does not inhibit the greatness of the DP.
Now that you have said uncle, I am free to go. This individual, who is disingenuous and ugly because he disagrees with you, has a chem. presentation to prepare. Jaja, I was surprised you didn't throw in a "your momma" joke while you were insulting me. . . man, those are classy. Good luck getting that IB coordinator off of you, a little birdie told me they're vicious cult leaders >: D
I think, therefore IB
I believe the IB program does not receive enough recognition in the United States, because of lack of familiarity. Simple example: usually, credits are given to AP and IB HL. Does this mean a 7 in IB SL isn't noteworthy?
A perfect score on any academic test is noteworthy. The real question to ask is if it is worthy of college credit. The answer to that is a resounding "No"!
In fact, at many colleges, even IB HL classes don't earn credit because of their reduced rigor. For example, an aspiring engineer at UC-Berkeley can't earn any credit at all for HL Math or HL Physics. (UC-Berkeley AP/IB credit schedules for engineering students, pp. 7-10)
Time and time again, I've seen IB proponents simply state their opinion that the IB Program doesn't receive enough recognition without supporting their position with any facts at all. It seems the IB proponents want to replace the diligent work of the engineering departments with their own opinion.
I am looking forward to the first time an IB proponent makes a case with facts and logic instead of opinions and emotion. IB proponents certainly arrive at conclusions very differently than I do.
ACR still fails to explain why one of the most prestigious schools in the US, Harvard, awards equal credit to IB candidates. He has danced around the topic, or simply evaded it repeatedly. How can this piece of information, easily found on the Harvard website, be seen as non-factual and emotional case for the IB.
ACR, care to inform me why one of the best universities in the US disagrees with you? Is it because they're "disingenuous?" I should add that Harvard is joined by Yale and Princeton; the three top universities in the US state that the IB and the AP programs are regarded equally.
*"as a non-factual. . .."
Markos,
Your statement that I haven't written about Harvard is factually inaccurate. I explained why Harvard doesn't appear on my lists here. I have been unable to locate an IB credit schedule for Harvard. You have stated as fact that Harvard grants equal credit for IB and AP students. The burden of proof is on you.
You are being disingenuous again. In the very first sentence of your very first comment here, you insinuated that AP supporters were some sort of lesser life form to yourself. That is what I describe as ugly. Honestly, Markos, I don't think you're doing a good job representing the IB Program.
Lastly, you rarely seem to be able to leave a comment without making some sort of logical fallacy. Today you are demonstrating Cherry Picking for us when you make the (unsubstantiated) claim that because Harvard treats AP and IB equally that we should ignore the overwhelming evidence that colleges give more and better credit to students who go through the AP Program.
Factual inaccuracies, logical fallacies, excessive emotion, ugly personal attacks. I think I understand why I find the IB Program so irritating.
ACR perceives things as he wishes to perceive them, as I've come to know.
I'll keep it short and simple, this time, so you can better deal with my points instead of choosing to concentrate on one, while failing to address all others.
1. I didn't say you failed to mention Harvard, I specifically said you failed to give a reason as to why Harvard grants equal footing to students with 7 on IB exams as it does to students with 5 on AP exams. Read, process, comment; I believe that's how responses work.
http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/counselors/ap_credit/index.html
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/652-harvard-give-credit-ap-ib.html
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/ask-dean-topics/475905-ap-vs-ib-do-colleges-prefer.html 3rd post
http://www.phs.princeton.k12.oh.us/Departments/AStudies/apibpolicy2.html This one is particularly helpful
1.5 - You still have failed to grace us with your logic as to why top notch schools award equal credit. Why do they, ACR? Is it because they're just as 'disingenuous,' and 'ugly' as I am?
2 - I don't recall stating that "because Harvard treats AP and IB equally that we should ignore the overwhelming evidence that colleges give more and better credit to students who go through the AP Program." Perhaps it is because I did not. The fact that top notch schools award equal credit indicates the the so called 'superiority' of the AP comes into question. Once again, read, process, comment.
3 - Hypocrisy, thy name is "you." Cherry picking? I would like to bring to your attention that you take your pick of particular 'cherries' to make a generalization, while I take my pick of the 'cherries' you've rejected to shape my rebuttal.
4 - ACR, I know how fond you are of the phrase "logical fallacy." I'm sure you could use it more often if you re-read your posts. You cannot say that because some schools accept more AP credit than IB credit, IB classes do not "earn credit because of their reduced rigor." That is, in fact, an actual logical fallacy; if some of 'these' are 'those,' and all of 'those' are 'others,' then surely not all of 'these' are 'others.' The fact that some schools reward AP students with more credit does not necessarily indicate that the "IB is inferior," (yes, you did state this.) All it explicitly indicates is that some schools reward AP students with more credit; the reasoning and the factors which influence this are not given.
This concludes my 'ugliness' for today, I must go study for the med. options section of my upcoming chem. test and finish a history essay.
Markos,
I can tell you are very emotional about IB. You really should consider toning that down because in and of itself, your emotional reactions diminish your argument.
As for the substance of your post, you haven't produced an IB credit schedule for Harvard. Neither have I. But because I can't find an IB credit schedule for Harvard, I have suspended judgment on the school. As I mentioned before, that is why Harvard doesn't appear on my list.
Markos, one last piece of advice. Your juvenile arrogance will turn a lot of people off as you become an adult. Please try to tone it down. Your insistence on cherry picking Harvard (without substantiation) to make your point smacks of elitism, too. This is another perceptual problem of the IB Program.
To address your comment that top universities to treat the two programs the same, let's look at US News & World Report's top engineering schools:
AP students earn better credit at six of them:
Stanford
California-Berkeley
Illinois
Cornell
Carnegie Mellon
Purdue
IB students earn the same credit (or close to it) at four:
MIT (1)
California Inst. of Tech. (2)
Georgia Tech
Michigan
(1) AP students have a minor advantage over IB students at MIT because AP students can test out of the freshman essay requirement while IB students can't.
(2) California Institute of Technology doesn't allow any credit by exam, hardly a reason to argue in favor of IB's rigor.
Conclusion, if you think you're going to a Top 10 Engineering school, you better take AP!
Top 10 Engineering schools.
ACR,
You are a very patient man. I have to admit I am curious as to exactly how crude, rude and vulgar comrade Marcos became in the posts you deleted, but I respect your judgement as the webmaster and your diligence in attempting to engage the IB zealot's "higher critical thinking skills", (acquisition of which is basically "guaranteed" or at the very least, repeatedly promised by IB). However, anyone who can speak of greater freedoms in China than the U.S. in one breath, then claim he wasn't referring to the "people" of China in the next, demonstrates all of the higher critical thinking skills of a rock and is truly terrifying that this Marcos is a living, breathing example of what IB produces.
I can only hope that every post he wrote here was a complete and total gag. It's not one that I find funny, that's for sure.
I recall that the last 'Anonymous' performed rather miserably; your efforts to match his idiocy do not go unnoticed. I believe my first mention of China was "thanks to poor Chinese law enforcement in my sunny coastal home, I am freer than you could ever be." A reflection on the greatness of the Chinese government? Hardly. A reflection on the poor state of the Chinese government? More likely. A personal statement relating to my, emphasis on "my," freedoms in China? Inarguable. ACR's interpretation: "you claimed that Communist China is more free than the United States." Hmm, I suppose there's a snowball's chance in hell that you would recognize that as an insipid generalization used as rhetorical leverage, even after the repeated use of the first pronoun ("my," "I am,") in my initial statement, and the specifications I provided following the first criticism of the statement.
Your lack of significant involvement in the preceding argument (you didn't argue with me as much as you insulted me,) as well as your obvious inability to read what has been written carefully (it's "Markos," Anonymous babo,) are not truly as reflective of my supposedly inferior critical thinking skills, as they are of your poor reading and analytical skills. I would further add that your irascible willingness to bash that red, bastard "comrade" instead of making a meaningful contribution to the argument at hand indicates a latent vulgarity on your part, not on mine, and a sense of political prejudice about your demeanor I know you will most likely not admit. I am a breathing example of what the IB contributes to, not what it produces; at the end of the day, the IB, just like the AP, is an academic program, not a method of indoctrination, as some idiots would have you believe. As for my contribution to this argument, I assure you, it will be produced shortly. Busy hectic week, what with orals, chem. and Mand. tests, history essays, MUN. 'Anonymous,' unless you make a meaningful contribution to this argument which does not siphon off of ACR's (has anybody ever heard of a point-counterpoint-counterpoint? Umm, no,) I see no significant purpose to your presence.
Markos,
You're assuming something not in evidence. Based on my webtracker the two "Anonymous" posters you think are the same originated in different cities.
I wish IB taught kids how to think.
Anon (March 9):
I assure you that I did not delete any comments from Markos. He deleted his own comments.
Markos,
I am concluding that your ugliness can't continue. I will delete future comments of yours that attack other people on this site.
But if you have any factual information that would be of value to this discussion such as an IB credit schedule for Harvard, you are welcome back.
ACR,
Thank you for spending the time to put together logical and supportable arguments against the IB Program, as well as for putting up with the immature and disrespectful comments posted by Markos. I am an IB Junior in the Diploma Programme and as I begin to formulate stronger opinions, I cannot help but notice some of the obvious flaws of the IB Program. While the IB Program is undoubtably stronger than most traditional public education curricula, their education system smacks of anti-intellectual socialism and progressive biases. Although I do not necessarily agree with some of the points you have brought up, I think your argument is intellectually sound and certainly have merit. However, I do think you should spend more time discussing viable alternatives to the IB Program, because they certainly do exist.
Once again, thank you for your time and energy. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.
-Anonymous IB Junior
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